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Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies #790508 12/19/23 12:57 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia ThomasS OP Apprentice
OP ThomasS Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia	I never much used the automatic harmonies in BIAB, but I just tried a surprisingly simple trick, and it sounded like this: Biab Harmonies - All of Me This was made totally automatic and took all of about 10 minutes, using the following steps: 1) I downloaded an MGU from the internet 2) I hit harmonize in BIAB and exported the midi. 3) I exploded the midi into five separate tracks, and assigned each to a different voice in Synthesizer V. 4) I copy and pasted the lyrics from the internet onto the file, so the melody automatically sang the words. Imagine how creative this would be if we made a more interesting melody (not the "square" one in the generic MGU file) and added a few more passing chords. But for an instantaneous choir, this is pretty impressive. The reason it sounds better than usual is that each separate harmony is sung by a different singer, with different sound and timbre, real women on the top and real men on the bottom. When you use audio-harmony it stretches the exact same singer, so the low notes sound weird and the high ones like a chipmunk on helium, and the accent is all the same. But with this method it is a different singer on each line, which makes all the difference. Last edited by ThomasS; 12/19/23 01:14 AM.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #790525 12/19/23 02:34 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,195 DC Ron Expert
DC Ron Expert Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,195	Tom, you're right, this is impressive! The audio-harmony in BiaB was never very musical sounding, as you note. When I need to create harmonies from a single lead line, I'll also introduce small random deviations in timing between the voices to give it a more natural feel. Sometimes you want that, sometimes you don't. I'm still pondering the role of vocaloids, AI and the like in my music. It certainly opens up a lot of possibilities... DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One StudioCat DAW dual screen Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #790660 12/19/23 01:30 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 10,135 Winston-Salem, NC USA Jim Fogle Veteran
Jim Fogle Veteran Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 10,135 Winston-Salem, NC USA	ThomasS, Nice sounding demonstration. Thank you for taking time to share the result of your experimentation with us. Do you mind sharing what vocaloids you used to create this demonstration? Last edited by Jim Fogle; 12/19/23 01:31 PM. Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #790681 12/19/23 04:00 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,993 Essex England Bob Calver Expert
Bob Calver Expert Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,993 Essex England	the harmony module in the old 32 bit RB used to have an ability to set small delays and timings in the harmonies that aren't available in the new version.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies Bob Calver #790685 12/19/23 04:19 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,195 DC Ron Expert
DC Ron Expert Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,195	Originally Posted by Bob Calver the harmony module in the old 32 bit RB used to have an ability to set small delays and timings in the harmonies that aren't available in the new version. Well, that seems like a step backwards, doesn't it? DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One StudioCat DAW dual screen Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies DC Ron #790694 12/19/23 05:37 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia ThomasS OP Apprentice
OP ThomasS Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia	The AI voices used in this test were Solaria, Natalie, Sheena, Mai, Hayden, Kevin, Jun and Asterian. They are all in Dreamtonics Synthesizer V. I did nothing to tweak them, this is exactly how they sang the midi file from BIAB. Of course, you can modify any one of them, but I wanted to see how fast this could be done. As far as loosening up the tightness, there are several ways to do that. You can either randomize the MIDI file before sending it to Synthesizer V, or (as I prefer) alter the WAV files Synthesizer V sends back to the DAW. This can be done in Melodyne, which has an audio timing randomizer, or put a small plus or minus delay on the tracks (or both.) I did neither of these in this example, but if I had it would have sounded a bit more realistic and human.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #790799 12/20/23 06:32 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,343 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,343 Middlesex, NC	As I understand it.... You can have SV add a humanize function to the vox which varies the voices in subtle ways so it's not a midi perfect replication rendered by different voices. I've not used it myself since I rarely do harmonies in the way you show in your example. So far.... I tend to use 2 harmony parts rendered by BB harmonizer and have them nudged in my DAW, panned and placed low in the mix. It's cheap, quick, and works for my needs. Your example is really nice BTW. Something I might have to play around with. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #790820 12/20/23 07:42 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 333 Arcachon, France TheMaartian Journeyman
TheMaartian Journeyman Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 333 Arcachon, France	Originally Posted by ThomasS I never much used the automatic harmonies in BIAB, but I just tried a surprisingly simple trick, and it sounded like this: Biab Harmonies - All of Me This was made totally automatic and took all of about 10 minutes, using the following steps: 1) I downloaded an MGU from the internet 2) I hit harmonize in BIAB and exported the midi. 3) I exploded the midi into five separate tracks, and assigned each to a different voice in Synthesizer V. 4) I copy and pasted the lyrics from the internet onto the file, so the melody automatically sang the words. Imagine how creative this would be if we made a more interesting melody (not the "square" one in the generic MGU file) and added a few more passing chords. But for an instantaneous choir, this is pretty impressive. The reason it sounds better than usual is that each separate harmony is sung by a different singer, with different sound and timbre, real women on the top and real men on the bottom. When you use audio-harmony it stretches the exact same singer, so the low notes sound weird and the high ones like a chipmunk on helium, and the accent is all the same. But with this method it is a different singer on each line, which makes all the difference. I've been looking at Synth V for awhile now. Your post was the inspiration I needed to open my wallet. I had to open it WIDE. I bought the bundle (studio pro + 1 voice database), plus 3 other voice databases. That cost almost 500 € with the 20% VAT for France. I bought the Asterian, Hayden, Natalie and Solaria voices. Time to play! ThinkPad i9 32GB RAM 7TB SSD; Win11 Pro; PreSonus Studio 1810c; BiaB 2024 Ultra Studio One 6 Pro; MuseScore 4; Melodyne 5 Studio; Acoustica Premium 7; Guitar Pro 8 Gig Performer 5; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 & 770

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies TheMaartian #790836 12/20/23 08:39 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia ThomasS OP Apprentice
OP ThomasS Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia	Yes, The Maartian, it is not cheap, but if you want vocals that sound realistic, it costs a lot less then hiring singers. I have eight English voices, so I guess I spent even more, but I am happy. If you want to make vocal harmonies, either for back-vocals in a pop song, or for choirs, Synthesizer V is the best. Here are a few examples I have made over the past year, all 100% Synthesizer V: Try To Remember A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square London By Night Somewhere Over the Rainbow Their Hearts Were Full of Spring Can't Help Falling in Love All of the above were made with the old version of Synthesizer V, but there is a new update with lots of new features, and it is much more capable and faster, so the future examples will sound even better. By the way, I should mention that another user advised that if you want to quickly use Synthesizer V to realize BIAB automatic harmonies, it is faster if you make the harmonies in RealBand instead of BIAB, because that can print and export the harmonies (either Audio or MIDI) with each harmony line on a separate track, which is the way Synthesizer V needs it. If you are used to BIAB, you can make the song and melody first, and then open it up in RealBand just to get the separated harmonies.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #790840 12/20/23 08:48 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 333 Arcachon, France TheMaartian Journeyman
TheMaartian Journeyman Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 333 Arcachon, France	Originally Posted by ThomasS Yes, The Maartian, it is not cheap, but if you want vocals that sound realistic, it costs a lot less then hiring singers. I have eight English voices, so I guess I spent even more, but I am happy. If you want to make vocal harmonies, either for back-vocals in a pop song, or for choirs, Synthesizer V is the best. Here are a few examples I have made over the past year, all 100% Synthesizer V: Try To Remember A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square London By Night Somewhere Over the Rainbow Their Hearts Were Full of Spring Can't Help Falling in Love All of the above were made with the old version of Synthesizer V, but there is a new update with lots of new features, and it is much more capable and faster, so the future examples will sound even better. By the way, I should mention that another user advised that if you want to quickly use Synthesizer V to realize BIAB automatic harmonies, it is faster if you make the harmonies in RealBand instead of BIAB, because that can print and export the harmonies (either Audio or MIDI) with each harmony line on a separate track, which is the way Synthesizer V needs it. If you are used to BIAB, you can make the song and melody first, and then open it up in RealBand just to get the separated harmonies. Beautiful harmonies! I don't even install RB. I'll have check the BiaB VST in Studio One to see if I can bounce the harmony lines individually. Thanks for the tip. I hope that you don't mind that I downloaded all of your harmonies. I'll see how I get on with the 4 voices I bought before buying anymore. Last edited by TheMaartian; 12/20/23 08:52 AM. ThinkPad i9 32GB RAM 7TB SSD; Win11 Pro; PreSonus Studio 1810c; BiaB 2024 Ultra Studio One 6 Pro; MuseScore 4; Melodyne 5 Studio; Acoustica Premium 7; Guitar Pro 8 Gig Performer 5; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 & 770

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies TheMaartian #790843 12/20/23 08:56 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia ThomasS OP Apprentice
OP ThomasS Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia	Yeah, I didn't install RB either, but found the download in my account purchase of BIAB and just tried it, and it is a fast way of getting BIAB harmonies on separate tracks. Perhaps separate tracks can be done in BIAB too, if someone here can explain how. I don't know if Studio One can "explode" a single track into separate harmony tracks, but I can do it automatically in Sibelius. Still RB is fast and easy for this function. The four voices you bought are great, and perfect for a small choir, because Asterian can sing bass, Hayden tenor, and Natalie & Solaria both soprano and alto. You should also download Mai, which is free, so you have one more female. Good idea to get used to these before getting more, but in the future I recommend Kevin, Saros, Jun and Sheena Last edited by ThomasS; 12/20/23 09:03 AM.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #790845 12/20/23 09:12 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 333 Arcachon, France TheMaartian Journeyman
TheMaartian Journeyman Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 333 Arcachon, France	Originally Posted by ThomasS Yeah, I didn't install RB either, but found the download in my account purchase of BIAB and just tried it, and it is a fast way of getting BIAB harmonies on separate tracks. Perhaps separate tracks can be done in BIAB too, if someone here can explain how. I don't know if Studio One can "explode" a single track into separate harmony tracks, but I can do it automatically in Sibelius. Still RB is fast and easy for this function. The four voices you bought are great, and perfect for a small choir, because Asterian can sing bass, Hayden tenor, and Natalie & Solaria both soprano and alto. You should also download Mai, which is free, so you have one more female. Good idea to get used to these before getting more, but in the future I recommend Kevin, Saros, Jun and Sheena Thanks for the additional heads-up. Mai downloaded and installed. It makes sense that the offer one free to use with the free version of Synth V. Not Studio One, but the BiaB VST. I will have to check if it can export multiple individual harmonies into separate audio/MIDI tracks. If that works, then you could use any DAW that supports the BiaB VST. I also have Reaper. If it works in SO, it'll work in Reaper. Last edited by TheMaartian; 12/20/23 09:19 AM. ThinkPad i9 32GB RAM 7TB SSD; Win11 Pro; PreSonus Studio 1810c; BiaB 2024 Ultra Studio One 6 Pro; MuseScore 4; Melodyne 5 Studio; Acoustica Premium 7; Guitar Pro 8 Gig Performer 5; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 & 770

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #790852 12/20/23 10:40 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,343 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 9,343 Middlesex, NC	I grabbed the free version of SV first with the limited voice. It was sufficient to convince me to dive in. As far as harmonies in BB. Load the vocal into the audio track. Select harmony from the top drop down menu and let it roll. It will create two harmony tracks as it's default which is plenty for me. It puts the new tracks in the utility tracks from where you can export them to the DAW. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies Guitarhacker #790943 12/20/23 06:10 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia ThomasS OP Apprentice
OP ThomasS Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia	If you want to use BIAB harmonies with Synthesizer V you need all parts on separate tracks (one note per track) because Synthesizer V can only work with monophonic files. I can easily get separated harmony tracks in RealBand, but not sure how to do it in BIAB? Last edited by ThomasS; 12/20/23 11:58 PM.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #791665 12/23/23 10:24 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,437 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,437 Melbourne, Australia	Impressive harmonies in those samples. I would love to also hear some of these vocal arrangements with an instrumental backing. That could be quite remarkable. BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies AudioTrack #792811 12/30/23 07:44 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia ThomasS OP Apprentice
OP ThomasS Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia	In the original songs thread I posted another example of BIAB automatic harmonies sung by Synthesizer V, and included the instrument of the RealTracks playing along with the vocal harmonies.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #792839 12/31/23 01:14 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 333 Arcachon, France TheMaartian Journeyman
TheMaartian Journeyman Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 333 Arcachon, France	Excellent example of the use of Synth V in BiaB. But...it's guys like you, using E flat, D and D flat keys that force us bass players to use Drop-D tuning or go to a five string with a low B. ThinkPad i9 32GB RAM 7TB SSD; Win11 Pro; PreSonus Studio 1810c; BiaB 2024 Ultra Studio One 6 Pro; MuseScore 4; Melodyne 5 Studio; Acoustica Premium 7; Guitar Pro 8 Gig Performer 5; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 & 770

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies TheMaartian #792845 12/31/23 03:08 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia ThomasS OP Apprentice
OP ThomasS Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia	Ha! The only reason I went from C to E-flat and D-flat was to test out the harmony function in transposition, to see if it got the right scales and passing tones. It did remarkably well. I wasn't really thinking of you bass players, but then who ever does? (The only time I can have a decent conversation at a club is when the bass takes a solo!) Last edited by ThomasS; 12/31/23 03:09 AM.

Re: Amazing Way to Render Great Vocal Harmonies ThomasS #792932 12/31/23 01:01 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia ThomasS OP Apprentice
OP ThomasS Apprentice Joined: Jul 2019 Posts: 123 Adelaide, South Australia	More information.... Best Way to Use Band-in-a-Box to Generate Vocal Harmonies for Synthesizer V 1) After you have your chords, play the melody on one track of BIAB, or if you have a MIDI file of the melody you made in your DAW, import that to the melody track of BIAB. 2) Hit F10 (or Top-Menu>Harmony>Melody Harmony) and choose whatever harmony style you want. There are 227 different types of harmony, or you can create your own custom ones too. 3) Now your melody track should play the harmony, so you can hear it to see if you like it, or undo and try another. 4) To get it into Synthesizer V: -Mute every track except the melody track (this is important) -Hit File>Save Special>MIDI>Type 1 -Import the MIDI file into Synth V, either the VST plugin or the Standalone. -Enter the lyrics and you’re ready to go. TIP: To save time, you might want to edit your melody track to not have gaps between notes in a phrase, because this will then have to be corrected by Synthesizer V later. One option is to run your melody first through a DAW that has the function of “legato quantize” or “length quantize” or similar, so that all notes within a phrase are connected. You can do this first to your melody before harmonizing, or you can do it later to each harmony line, but it is slower to do it once it is inside Synthesizer V.

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