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Unnamed is disingenuous as it's a well known song but is a cover that I shouldn't post BUT it is an experiment in BIAB strings as well as other parts. Sung by CeeBee of Germany. The "strings" are built from two separate iterations of a RealTrack string quartet as well as a cello and a fiddle squished together with some master bus style compression and EQ boost in different parts of each to emphasize the movement. Added to them are a couple of Mel9 tracks as well as a simple track using the Yamaha FX500's Soft Focus setting which creates a pad/bed for the strings. Oh, I also used the Mel9 clarinet to create a sound that moved between chords. Additional BIAB tracks are one of the classical guitars (there are four - three by me) and DRUMS. the other bits are me, a Mustang (Squire), a Marshall amp and a Vantage bass. It's not been "mastered": just straight from the stereo bus. Unknown unnamed BIAB experiment Unknown - louder vocals STRING THINGs STRINGS n THINGSVolume, pan & bypass envleopes [img] https://www.dropbox.com/s/iz7jyd27n47erab/string%20automation.png?dl=0[/img] EQing for differences. [img] https://www.dropbox.com/s/c8ci6j3l3ye0ncm/string%20EQs.png?dl=0[/img]
Last edited by rayc; 03/20/20 12:08 AM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Strings sound good to me, I've never had much with them myself, especially during chord changes. I like the guitars too. Is this you on vocal? I like it, you have a good character voice. Should be a bit louder though in places IMHO. Nice ending! Great song too of course 
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Using strings for a solid base is something that most people overlook (I think). This is a good demonstration of how they can carry the load.
All the supporting players sound good - guitars, drums and (especially) bass...
Vocal works (as Dave mentioned...it could be louder).
A big sound (once I turned my speakers up enough).
fj
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Strings can easily form a solid base as this proves.
Nice work. In places it reminds me of the Moody Blues and how they used strings to great effect in some of their music.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/19/20 03:55 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Strings are above our paygrade -- just too much happening with them for my old brain to comprehend mixing. But, man, you made good use of them.
You singing? Cool.
Like the way you got the RT fiddle and cello to work in so well with the string quartet. Nice guitar and bass things happening also.
Lush, mellow rock that keeps one engaged all the way through...
Yeah!
J&B
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Thanks folks,
the singer is a chap who goes by CeeBee, and is a BIAB user, I know from a different forum.
The trick I found with the strings was to generate two different quartets and then, using EQ, focus on a different aspect of each by boosting that difference. Afterward I blended in the cello & fiddle with, again, variation in the EQ. The Mel9 parts, orchestra & strings, allowed me to generate movement from chord to chord. I sent them all to a bus, added a little reverb, hammered it with a heavy compressor and then played with the levels across the song.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Hi Ray,
I like working with strings very much, as you may have noticed in my songs. But I didn't use them so orchestrally as you did in this song. That is still a bit too difficult I fear. the way you used them in your song is very nice. This supports the song in a great way. Together with the guitar they make a very interesting, intriguing melody. The vocals in it reminds me of Shane MacGowan from the Pogues, an Irish-English folk/punkband. They don't sound nice, but they are interesting and are therefore very good. Though the song is nearly 6 minutes, I found it a bit too short...
I agree with others on the forum the vocals must be mixed a bit more upfront. But you wrote this was an unmixed/mastered version, so I'm not complaining, just telling.
Hans
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Hi Ray,
I've always admired people who manage to use strings in their arrangements, because I've tried it so often, but never managed to get them right, so I alwys deleted them after a while.
It's not only an art to get the right sound - I always found it hard to write their parts, much harder than writing a brass arrangement.
What you did sounds really good and (I guess you're the vocalist) very cool singing.
All the best,
Stefan
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Your voice has a soothing feel and it makes me want to listen closer to what you are saying. I agree it needs to be louder. I can almost identify the song, maybe Pink Floyd. I do like the strings.
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Nicely done, rayc. Strings sound great! I try to use them from time to time, but haven'e gotten them to behave as you have so masterfully done here.
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I don't know the original so this is all new to me. I like it. A great mood piece. I like it. Great use of BIAB.
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Love this track, strings really give it a warmth. Trouble with the RT strings is that I find them too choppy in a lot of chord changes. They sound a LOT more natural on this recording though. Well done
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Just listening to the strings track alone, I think it loses the character of "real" strings and has more the Mellotron sound.
In context, they work, but I'm not sure they're any better than using a plain string pad.
My general feeling is that you shouldn't have to do this sort of editing to get good RT tracks out of BiaB.
Earlier this week I was working on a backing track for a friend, and decided to try out some RealTrack strings. Ironically, I picked 2458 - Strings, Rhythm CelticWaltz Ev 100, which are actually sampled strings played on a keyboard.
They were completely unusable. Chords had random gaps between them, and it skipped from one register to the next without rhyme or reason. Even manually crossfading the transitions wasn't enough.
I know that putting together good RealTracks isn't trivial. But I really can't understand how such sloppy editing got past QC.
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Just listening to the strings track alone, I think it loses the character of "real" strings and has more the Mellotron sound.
In context, they work, but I'm not sure they're any better than using a plain string pad.
My general feeling is that you shouldn't have to do this sort of editing to get good RT tracks out of BiaB.
Chords had random gaps between them, and it skipped from one register to the next without rhyme or reason. dcuny, I, mostly, agree. The Mellotron sound you hear is actually the FX500 - a thick pad but is guitar generated. The Mel9 strings are quite low in the mix and the clarinet is more prominent. The Sudden cuts etc that Real Strings generate is the reason for the FX 500 track - it helps fill those gaps. Personally I can hear the different characters within some of the Real tracks. The strings on offer aren't good enough to work on their own and that's a given for a few RTs at present. Context is needed for the brain to accept them. As an experiment I think it was instructive and as music I think, within the context of the song, it worked. Perhaps PG will get the hint.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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>>> Chords had random gaps between them, and it skipped from one register to the next without rhyme or reason. Even manually crossfading the transitions wasn't enough.
Yes, strings are sensitive to gaps or timbre changes from transpositions. There are some things you can do to improve that though, within BIAB.
These things typically improve transitions on strings.
1. Thickening, so 4 string parts play instead of one. This is done in the realTracks picker using the medley button (after selecting the correct track with the radio buttons)
And
Disabling “allow transpositions (song settings dialog). Transposing can introduce timbre differences on some sounds like strings.
or 2. Switching to a MIDI SuperTracks 2059 Celtic Waltz Strings. That replaces the RealTracks with a MIDI equivalent. That would cure the different timbre changes you noticed.
I tried these, and they each improved transitions a lot. It just takes a few seconds to do this, and hear the results. It’s possible for us to revisit those realTracks and make that happen automatically (thickening, no transpositions). That would just be a setting, no editing of tracks needed. In the meantime, those suggestions might help.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Ray,
I listened for the strings ( though the vocalist has the right amount of smoke in his verse for this great song)- really glad you posted your efforts as I often wonder how to use them to get close to the orchestral sounds I hear in my head. I liked the way you used the cello overtop of the string section towards the end.
Thanks to Peter for the tips above... maybe they should be on a tips article somewhere- I know I`ll forget them!
Robert
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>>> Chords had random gaps between them, and it skipped from one register to the next without rhyme or reason. Even manually crossfading the transitions wasn't enough.
Yes, strings are sensitive to gaps or timbre changes from transpositions. There are some things you can do to improve that though, within BIAB.
These things typically improve transitions on strings.
1. Thickening, so 4 string parts play instead of one. This is done in the realTracks picker using the medley button (after selecting the correct track with the radio buttons)
And
Disabling “allow transpositions (song settings dialog). Transposing can introduce timbre differences on some sounds like strings.
or 2. Switching to a MIDI SuperTracks 2059 Celtic Waltz Strings. That replaces the RealTracks with a MIDI equivalent. That would cure the different timbre changes you noticed.
I tried these, and they each improved transitions a lot. It just takes a few seconds to do this, and hear the results. It’s possible for us to revisit those realTracks and make that happen automatically (thickening, no transpositions). That would just be a setting, no editing of tracks needed. In the meantime, those suggestions might help.
Excellent tips PG.I'll try option one as I'm not fussed on MIDI. I think the transposition one will make things flow much better too. THANKS
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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HUGE fan of the strings here! A while back I actually posted a video on how to make strings, among other tracks, more natural sounding and with smoother transitions. The entire video is relevant, but for the example demonstrating strings, skip to 10 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUBNZvNAjzk&t=83s
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HUGE fan of the strings here! A while back I actually posted a video on how to make strings, among other tracks, more natural sounding and with smoother transitions. The entire video is relevant, but for the example demonstrating strings, skip to 10 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUBNZvNAjzk&t=83sThank you, I'm downloading the vid as I type. Two sets of tips to improve - I enjoy the learning curve.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Ray,
Strong collaboration!
This is quite different. I am sure many hours and trials & errors went into production, but it surely paid off. Making strings do what you want is like training cats, you done a grand job on them! Overall amazing large sound! Bass certainly injected some life into this. Vocals fit very well. I liked the version with louder vocals. I know this is a special tune, and my honest opinion, CeeBee's voice worked very well on this. Thank you for sharing!
Misha.
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